Looking Back at LGBTQIA+ Travel Stories: Season 2, Episode 7 of 'Let's Go Together'
Celebrate Pride Month by giving this podcast a listen.
Travel is evolving and we're here to celebrate it.
After spending more than a year at home, we are ready to get back out and explore the world once again. And when we do, we want everyone to be prepared to do it alongside us.
We're celebrating the return to travel and preparing globetrotters everywhere with all-new episodes of our podcast, Let's Go Together, which highlights how travel changes the way we see ourselves and the world.
In the first season, our pilot and adventurer host Kellee Edwards introduced listeners to diverse globe-trotters who showed us that travelers come in all shapes and sizes and from all walks of life. From the first black woman to travel to every country on Earth to a man who trekked to Machu Picchu in a wheelchair, we met some incredible folks. And now, in our second season, Edwards is back to introduce you to new people, new places, and new perspectives.
In our latest episode, we're throwing it back to a few favorite episodes. With Pride 2021 coming up next month, we're re-sharing past conversations with travelers from the LGBTQIA+ community, including Gabi and Shanna of 27 Travels, Matt and Brad of Hello Ranger, and trans advocates Kam Burns and Aria Sa'id.
"I think it's important to not let fear or preconceived notions stifle your sense of adventure or wanderlust. There's a fine line between being cautious and also just making rash assumptions about whole communities," Matt Kirouac shares. "That's something I'm still trying to navigate personally. So it's easier said than done, but just don't let fear or anxiety, dissuade you from carving your own path and exploring whatever it is you want to explore, whether it's a national park or a different city or a small town. There's a way that you can be mindful and cautious and put the research in while also going out and exploring and having fun and meeting new people, going to new restaurants, going to new cities and communities. It's all achievable."
Kellee: Hi, my name is Kellee Edwards...and this is Let's Go Together, a podcast from Travel + Leisure about the ways travel connects us, and what happens when you don't let anything stop you from seeing the world.
On this episode of Let's Go Together, we're doing something special. With Pride 2021 coming up in about a month, we're taking a look back at some of our favorite conversations on this podcast with guests from the LGBTQ community. That's right, it's a clip show.
Our first clip comes from my conversation with Gabi and Shanna, a New York-based couple who created the popular LGBTQ travel blog, 27 Travels. I asked them about the most LGBTQ friendly international city they've traveled to.
Season 1 Episode 18, Gabi: Oh, that, that's a hard one because I think that Shanna and I would both have different answers actually.
Gabi: Yeah. Because we just like, I like, we've been to so many places that each of us have like a favorite. But, I mean, I really loved when we were in Italy, we had a really great experience in Italy. We felt like we could just be ourselves and nobody bothered us. And if we held hands, you know, no one even like looked at us weird and it was just a really nice. We kind of like bounced around a few different parts of Italy, but we kind of felt that in every single part of Italy we went to and just wound up having the most amazing trip because of that.
Kellee Edwards: I will say that in Europe, holding hands is probably really, really common, even amongst like, men in different parts of the world, more so than it is here in the States. So, I think that they seem to be, it depends on the country and more open to that type of endearment towards one, one another. Would you agree?
Gabi: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's something that's so nice for us when we're traveling like in Europe, because it's something that we always have to think so much about something as simple as like holding each other's hand, which is so nice to just be able to do and not have to worry about it. Which, which when we're in Italy, for example, we were just able to do that.
Shanna: So I think my, my favorite, um, would have to be, um, Cape Town in South Africa. just all throughout South Africa, which we did last year, you can just really feel that it's extremely welcoming. There are pride flags everywhere. There are lots of couples holding hands. There's a few gay bars, um, things like that. So we just had an amazing time there. We felt extremely comfortable being ourselves. We didn't feel like we have to hide anything and no one did like a lot of times this happens when you're, um a same-sex couple, like when you're booking a hotel room, they like want to make sure that you want one bed and in South Africa that didn't happen. Like, you know, when we had our hotel rooms, like no one was like, Oh, you know, do you want two beds? Are your sure about this? Blah, blah, blah. We were all like, no one asks that, which is also really nice. It's like very like subtle things Kellee Edwards: That is awesome. Yeah. I never would think about being pressured to answer a question about how many beds that I want and whatever I booked is what I booked. And then that's the room that you should fulfill. So these are things that, you know, I, as a straight woman, wouldn't even have to think about and to hear that perspective is very interesting. You're like, no, I said what I said, we want one bed. Um, it's that simple. And it seems like sometimes people are trying to force their narrative on you by saying like, are you sure you don't need two beds? It's like no joker.
Shanna: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because. That's like actually something that's like a constant when we travel is that people love to ask us about our bed situation and like, just make sure a hundred times, even though we're saying, yeah, that's what we booked that it is. So it's interesting.
Kellee Edwards: My goodness. Can you think of any other, uh, nuances like that, that come up? That via like a straight person wouldn't necessarily have to think about.
Shanna: Yeah. I mean, it happens a lot of time also when we're taking like a taxi or an Uber or something like, the drivers, just trying to be friendly and being like, Oh, you know, how do you two know each other? And then we have to immediately be like, we have to like, look at each other and go, okay like, what do we say here? So like, we usually don't automatically say that we're a couple, we'll just be like, Oh yeah, like we're friends. And then if we start talking in, like, the conversation is going in a direction where we feel like we can like reveal that we're a couple, we will, so every time we get into a taxi, now we have to like have this like mental thing of, are we going to be a couple or are we not?
Kellee: Safety was actually something that Gabi and Shanna had a lot to talk about
Season 1 Episode 18
Kellee Edwards: So during your travels do, and I'd love to know each of your perspectives, do you feel a heightened sense of awareness or having to be extra cautious as a lesbian couple traveling? And Shanna I'd love to start with you.
Shanna: Yeah. I mean, I think safety for us is always our number one priority. Like before we decide to go anywhere, like the first thing we do, whether it's in the United States or out of the country is look up, um, the laws of that country regarding homosexuality and same sex marriage, and also the public opinion of, um, the people who live in that country as well. Just so that we kind of have an idea before going there.
Okay, you know, maybe right off the bat, we shouldn't hold hands because we're not sure how they're going to accept us, or if we're going somewhere that is extremely accepting, like this past weekend, we were just in Provincetown, Massachusetts, which is like one of the most LGBTQ friendly places, probably in the world.
So there, we were just like, oh, you know, no problem. We can hold hands. We could be ourselves and we don't have to worry about it. But for most of the time, we, we definitely do our research first just to make sure that we're going to be safe. And then from there, once we get to the place, we kind of do another assessment of like, okay, you know, the vibe here seems like really cool and like really welcoming, you know, maybe, um, it would be fine if we, [00:07:00] you know, held hands or kissed or something like that.
But if we go somewhere and we kind of don't really feel very welcomed or, you know, we just feel like we can't really be ourselves there, then we just won't, um, show that we're a couple, so we won't hold hands or we won't do any PDA. since we're both feminine passing, that is a privilege of ours to be able to do that because there are other, um, LGBTQ relationships where they won't be able to show that they're not a couple, no matter what they do. So that is a privilege of ours to be able not to do that. But yeah, we definitely always are worried about safety, number one.
Kellee Edwards: Absolutely. Gabi, do you have anything to add to that?
Gabi: Yeah. I mean, I think that traveling as a lesbian couple, we just always have a heightened awareness about like our surroundings and the people around us. I mean, even just as women, that's something that we're really conscious of because if we're traveling somewhere, whether it's in our country or like abroad and, and we don't know how people treat women there specifically, that can also be something that's an issue. And that we have to be really careful about.
Kellee Edwards: What have you seen in the differences between traveling domestically as a couple and internationally as a couple?
Shanna: it truly depends on the city or the state or the country. Like every place is different. Like for example, like in New York City where we're from or in other, um, like urban cities, we have felt like really comfortable being ourselves. if we see like a pride flag, um, in the city or outside of a store, or like a little pride sticker in, in a window of a shop or something, no matter where it is, we automatically feel like, okay, we can be ourselves here. But it could be the same thing, um, for example, if we're traveling, we just did a road trip, um, throughout the Midwest and drove all the way from New York City to Wyoming.
And some of the States in the middle there, in the Midwest, we didn't really feel a hundred percent comfortable being ourselves so we just didn't hold hands or show any PDA. We just kind of were trying to like, enjoy ourselves as best we could. But yeah, it really just depends on the place. I mean, there is no like, you know, set of rules you can follow and be like, Oh, here is fine and here is, that's like, everyone's going to have a different experience everywhere. So it just, you kind of have to assess the situation for yourself while you're there. That's the best advice I could give.
Kellee: Safety was also a central theme in our next clip from my conversation with Brad and Matt Kirouac, a married couple on a mission to visit all 419 US National Parks in their RV home.
Season 1 Episode 2
Kellee: (in interview) So while you guys have been traveling around to these national parks in your RV, have you faced discrimination and felt unsafe during your travels as a gay couple? Because you mentioned, you know, possibly getting kicked out or trying to test the tone of the area, the waters by, you know, giving different descriptors of the relationship depending on where you are.
Brad: It's very subtle in a lot of cases. But then there are direct cases. Yes.
Kellee: (in interview) How do you guys deal with that?
Brad: I'll let Matt go on this one.
Matt: I know for me, when we're in a place that I'm not yet sure about or comfortable with, I try not to, even though it kind of sounds rude, like, I don't engage that much. I stay quiet and like distant. It was a big adjustment going from a big city and it still takes getting used to because, in Chicago, I never like hesitated or thought twice about how I was perceived, whether that's like how I dressed or being out and about with Brad holding hands, kissing in public, all of that. That was all normal and comfortable. Then suddenly when I'm in these much smaller towns and cities, I wasn't comfortable and I wasn't used to that feeling, feeling like I had to tone myself down. I used to dress pretty colorfully and have like an absurd amount of weird jewelry and all these rings and stuff. And I just kind of put all that way from the most part. some of that had to do with just like the physical restrictions of being in a 26 foot space all of a sudden. But also I shifted more towards very straightforward looks and outfits trying to, I dunno, I guess in a way like blend in as much as possible. Then, even still, being worried that people were judging me or looking at me different. It's been hard to acclimate to that type of mentality. It's not a pleasant feeling. And I also don't want to assumethat everybody I come in contact with hates me or anything like that. So I try to also keep that in mind, not judging the book by the cover and just being like, "Oh, you all don't want me here." On the other hand, I've been very pleasantly surprised by some of the nicest interactions and people and communities ever who are just so warm and gracious. So it's kind of, it's been tricky to navigate that emotionally and keep everything kind of in check while also taking care of like myself and my relationship with Brad because it reflects on him too. And it's taken me a year, a year and a half or a little bit more now to be able to articulate that a little more clearly then be more comfortable with that. It's still a work in progress.
Brad: One thing, just to elaborate on this a little bit, is I have a different privilege than Matt does because I am straight looking. We both have a privilege because we are Caucasian. But I have tattoos. I'm bulky. I don't look the role of being a typical "gay." I think that that is the privilege that I have. That is the difference between, we're living the same lifestyle in the same areas and people would never assume that I'm gay.
Kellee: I'm glad you brought that up because you know, I've looked at both of your social media and your website, and it was an observation that I made as well. I could see where your comfort level is different than Matt's per se. I'm glad that you touched on that because I could see, you know, why Matt's experience would feel a little bit more uncomfortable or fearful even, because it's something that can be more easily detected just based off of a look. Brad, how has this been for you?
Brad: Yeah. So what we do is we read each other. I'm never gonna force him to hold my hand, one because that's just not good relationship ethics, but two, because I want him to be comfortable. If in that aspect we need to be friends versus husbands, and that's what we do. It's not like when I get to an RV park and they see two guys and they're like "Oh, are you guys brothers?" We're like, "no, you know, that's my other half." You know, if they asked directly, we'll be honest. We don't say my husband, we kind of say other half, my partner, we use different terminology and words, to really portray the best neutral way to test tones of other people so we don't have to have a fear of getting kicked out of an RV park, which I don't think happens a lot. But it's still a fear on the back of our minds. So we just kind of be respectful of that.
Kellee: After the break, we'll hear more from Brad and Matt about their travel tips for LGBTQ travelers, as well as revisit our conversation with Aria Sa'id and Kam Burns, two travelers who identify as transgender.
Kellee: Welcome back to Let's Go Together from Travel + Leisure. In our next clip with Matt and Brad Kirouac, I asked them to share any travel advice they had for fellow LGBTQ travelers.
Season 1 Episode 2
Brad: Do your research, make sure that you find the lifestyle that you want. If you have any questions, please reach out to us. We love talking with people and educating people and we want to be a great resource. I am constantly checking my Instagram messages. I'm @Bradley_KRC, and Matt is @Matt_KRC. We'll gladly answer any questions you have because we want you to go and experience America for what it really is and the, all the amazing things-- the national parks, state parks, cities, towns have to offer because there's so much beauty out here. we are going to keep on doing this because we love it and we do feel safe enough to be on the road, but we still have to have these safety checks.
Matt: Yeah, and I want to add too, I think it's important to not let fear or preconceived notions stifle your sense of adventure or wanderlust. There's a fine line between being cautious and also just making rash assumptions about whole communities. That's something I'm still trying to navigate personally. So it's easier said than done, but just don't let fear or anxiety, dissuade you from carving your own path and exploring whatever it is you want to explore, whether it's a national park or a different city or a small town, whatever it is. There's a way that you can be mindful and cautious and put the research in while also going out and exploring and having fun and meeting new people, going to new restaurants, going to new cities and communities. It's all achievable. You can do all of that while taking care of yourself. So just a matter of doing it at your own pace, I think, and making sure that you're comfortable with it before taking these next steps because everybody operates at different intervals. I wouldn't necessarily suggest or tell people to do it exactly how we did it. Just do it
on at your own pace and make sure that you feel safe and comfortable because there's so much out there to see and everyone deserves to see and explore these places.
Kellee: Right. Matt, you said in an essay you wrote for Travel+ Leisure that national parks especially have felt like the ultimate safe spaces. Tell me more about that.
Matt: That's definitely true. one of my favorite things about the national parks is they do feel like very neutral places that kind of transcend. All walks of life and backgrounds and like political alignments and all that.
Whether I'm at a giant National Park like Yellowstone or a smaller one or a national battlefield, like Little Big Horn, these are places where you're crossing paths with people there. Families, single people, couples, everyone is sharing this interest in this passion, in these places, and it's refreshing. It's one of the very few instances where everyone's kind of on the same page and enjoying something together. And so that's what I love about them. They're these beautiful, communal, communal places. Then also just like park rangers and everyone who works for the national park service are very inspiring, talented, and welcoming people who just exude passion. That's a nice thing to be around cause it's palpable. There's something very energizing about that. So whether I'm feeling down or threatened or anything, it's a nice place to go and recharge and just be around people with shared interests and it's just really great. It's been really beneficial for me emotionally.
Kellee: Our last clips come from my conversation with Aria Sa'id and Kam Burns about traveling with a trans identity. The world is slowly becoming more aware of the different ways individuals identify with regards to gender outside of the traditional male-female binary. But as the world catches up, how do travelers who identify as transgender deal with travel? I ask Aria and Kam their thoughts.
Kellee Edwards: what is it like traveling through America as an American with a trans identity, and maybe you can discuss, you know, your first trip.
Kam Burns: Sure. Um, yeah, so I will start by saying I have not been out for that long. Um, I've only been out and physically and medically transitioning for about two years now. Um, and for the first year I just pretty much made sure I would not have to fly anywhere. Um, I didn't make any big trips. If I did, they were by train or by car. Um, so my first trip was about I want to say a year and a half into my transition.
Um, and I was flying out to San Francisco from New York. Um, and it was really totally uneventful, which was, I was lucky. Um, but the return trip was less so. I did get uh flagged as I was going through TSA. Um, which was not the worst thing. They just gave me the Pat down. But yeah, it was a bit stressful because, um, I was perceived as male and so they had a male TSA agent pat me down.
It was, uh, a little bit stressful as they got closer to like my genital area. Um, And like, again, nothing really happened, but it was just something where I was pretty tense the whole time because anything could have happened in that moment.
Kellee Edwards: It's, it's interesting that you share this experience because the more I do this podcast and I get to learn about so many diverse experiences. These are things that I would never think, think of while going through TSA for myself personally, I walked through if I get pat-down, they assigned me a woman, but it's so enlightening to know that there are experiences like this and they can be extremely anxiety-ridden.
And so thank you for sharing that because I think unless you are, you know, a trans person you wouldn't necessarily think about that experience.
And so it's interesting to hear, to hear that other perspective as well. Aria?
Aria Sa'id: Um, yeah. Um, Well, um, yeah, I transitioned in high school. So I think what makes, I think my experience different is just the timeline of awareness for trans people and trans people having more agency now than definitely back then, um, to like educate the world on our experiences and, and share our stories. And um, and so on. And so, um, yeah, as, um. When I was 18, I came to San Francisco. Um, I moved to San Francisco around 17, 18, [00:15:00] but, um, I went to a smaller town in California on the coast. Um, with some friends, we took a road trip and, um, again, this was just a different time when people didn't immediately know what the word transgender meant.
They had never seen a transgender person. This was before the era of visibility that we have now. Um, where now people can see trans people in television and, um, yeah. In different industries and so on. And so, um, some friends of mine, um, they're cisgender, um, some of them, um, LGBT and we went to a restaurant and, um, the server, we're like ordering and we're talking, we're hanging out.
Again, we're in this like small coastal city in California, Northern California. And the server comes up to me and was like, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is a family establishment in here. There are children in here. It's literally what she, she was so adamant. I'm like, What, and she's like, you're a man in a dress and like freaking out.
She told us that she refused to service. She pointed to the sign that says that they had rights to refuse service to anyone. Um, and so that was like my first rush with really sort of blatant transphobia in that particular way. Um, You know, I love, I know we love to talk about how liberal, um, the coastal cities are or the coastal areas, um, bigger cities.
Um, but I think people will find if you talk to enough trans people that transphobia exists everywhere. Um, I've had similar experiences going to the South, but I think what's also different is like, um, as much stigma as there is about, um, people in the South. I find that people in the South have actually been a lot more respectful and a lot nicer to than sometimes um, in more liberal environments like New York or San Francisco.
Kellee Edwards: I have to admit that is shocking to me to hear that, that you feel more welcome and accepted in the South than versus like you said, liberal coastal places.
Kam Burns: Can I add something there?
Kellee Edwards: Sure.
Kam Burns: So I've also sort of noticed that experience. And I think for me, at least part of it is that gender is more binary in the middle of the country and in the South. Um, so in New York I often get read as not so much anymore, but especially early on, I would get red as a masculine woman or a non-binary person because people are more used to seeing fluid gender expression, whereas in the South people expect to see man or woman. So they put you into the category you most fit with. Um, and so whenever I'm in anywhere other than New York, I am, misgendered much less frequently than I am here.
There's still sort of a, um, a norm of, of being polite and minding your own business.
Kellee Edwards: Minding the business that pays you. Can you recall a time-traveling abroad or domestically where you felt unwelcome?
Aria Sa'id: I don't know if I have an experience of going to a place and feeling unwelcome so much as having, going to a place that I know is traditionally not accepting of either LGBT people or trans people specifically and, and having to be very vigilant about my safety. Yes. Because Kellee, you and I were in Brazil and we did that speaking tour right. And like, um, we talked about it because we went to that club and I only had an anxiety attack when we were at, at that, outside that club, there was like this, there were folks gathering in the street and, you know, we're in Brazil and Brazil is beautiful and amazing, amazing. And, um, the culture and everything.
And I was so excited to go. And at the same time, I was so nervous and like almost skittish because you know, Brazil is, um, has the highest mortality rates of transgender people in the world. Um, United States is, is second. Right? And so, uh, transwomen are killed quite frequently in their high rates in, um, Brazil specifically.
So, um, I had to bring folks with me to travel for safety. Like I was sending pins to the coordinators of that speaking tour, just so that they knew I was at all times. Like, and I think those are things that people don't think of naturally um, when you travel
Kellee: (script) As with the other guests we've highlighted, safety while traveling is top of mind for Aria and Kam. In this clip, I asked them how they prepare for travel.
Kellee Edwards: What things did you have, do you have to consider when preparing for a trip? Kam?
Kam Burns: first of all, I very recently changed my legal name and got an [00:32:00] ID with my new legal name and my correct sex, male. Um, so that has helped a lot because before, when I was traveling, I would have to get a boarding pass in my old name.
Um, and that always got looks, uh, and confusion. And luckily it usually it wasn't a huge deal cause I was flying out of New York, but it was always something kind of in the front of my mind.
Uh, but while flying, I would wear a sports bra in an oversized shirt instead, because I knew there was a chance that would be patted down. And again, I just didn't want to explain that.
Kellee Edwards: Aria, how do you prepare for a trip?
Aria Sa'id: Yeah. Um
Kellee Edwards: Besides showing up fly.
Aria Sa'id: Okay. [Laughs] Um, yeah, I think for me, um, you know, I, I have my own experiences. Um, I think traveling too, and then I've seen how, um, some of my friends have different experiences. So for instance, a friend of mine, um, she's six foot four. Um, she's what we consider visibly trans, right? Like she's beautiful and stunning, but people know she's trans when she walks in the room and she's, um, she's definitely fine with it, but I think [00:38:00] she has difficulty when it comes to customs.
So we've traveled together. She's a DJ. Um, and so she's had issues that I have not had, which is even though her ID and stuff, say female, like, you know, Um, as trans people, we get to live in the fantasy of cisgender people's minds. And so, you know, being in customs in London was one of the most horrific experiences cause they detained her for eight hours simply because they did not believe that she was really a woman. Right. Um.
Kellee Edwards: Wow.
Aria Sa'id: Like those kinds of experiences are ones that it's like, those are hard to prepare for.
I encourage every trans person I know anyone that's, non-binary anyone, that's gender nonconforming, right? Anyone that may have issues with, um, you know, security measures within airports. I encourage everyone to get global entry and TSA precheck.
It has been a huge life lifesaver for me. Um, not only do you get to keep your shoes on and you don't have to like. Unpack your suitcase at the, at the TSA belt for the scanning. You just put it on the, on the runway belt thing and you walk through the little metal detector. Um, but also like very rarely do I get pat-down.
I think before, when I was just flying, um, you know, in the regular TSA line, um like, I have people ask me to remove my, uh, is it a wig? Is it a weave? Can you remove it? We need to see what's underneath. I've had people, um, you know, not sure which gendered TSA agent they should send to over to me, to pat me down. Like, it's just, it's too much.
trans people, we just, um, we just have to invest in the resources that exist to minimize, um, those interactions as much as possible. That's just what I believe like you, you, we do unfortunately have to go the extra mile and while we're educating the world to be inclusive of us,I tell trans people all the time, get TSA, precheck, like get global entry.
It just saves you so much of the headache, um, that, that comes with traveling to start. Another thing that I do to prepare to travel is, um, you know, making sure my phone is charged, um, you know, using apps like Lyft and Uber. Um, because there's location tracking and GPS yeah, I treat my travel, like as if I'm doing the travel itinerary for Beyonce, like making sure that, making sure that there's a safety plan, um, that things are set up ahead of time when I get there, especially internationally, like um doing a car service, like things like those are extra mile things that I do, um, to just maximize my safety.
I usually, if I'm traveling to another country, I prefer to stay in a hotel, um, versus like someone's house, just because A, I like the amenities, but B it's a standardized thing. Like, you know, there's always going to be concierge, you know, that, that it's [00:43:00] going to be in a higher traffic area. Like, you're not going into the remote area of the city and just staying at someone's castle and like not having an accountability person to check on you. Like, those are all things that I consider.
Kellee Edwards: So Aria's given a lot of advice and shared things that she does for herself. Kam, what advice would you give to a trans person or a gender nonconforming traveler?
Kam Burns: Um, I would definitely echo global entry, TSA precheck. Um, those are very valuable. Um, if you can afford it,I think having a person who knows what you're doing and where you're going, whether they're physically traveling with you, or it's a friend back home who you can say, "Hey, I'm going out tonight. If you don't hear from me by X time, like give me a call, see what's up." Um, you can share your location with that person. Um, but yeah, I think opting for Uber or Lyft over public transportation or a standard cab is usually safer.
Kellee: We'll leave you with this final clip from Shanna of 27 Travels, where she shares her hopes for a more tolerant future for all travelers, and I hope that one day, we'll be able to make that future a reality.
Season 1 Episode 18
Shanna: we still love traveling and we wouldn't, you know, like, just because we have to go through that experience, we wouldn't ever stop traveling.
Like we would just love to live in a world one day where no one has to do that. And, you know, everyone can just travel freely, no matter their like race, gender, sexuality, anything like that. But unfortunately, now, that is something that we do have to consciously think of all the time, but at the same time, it's like, it's not the only thing we're thinking about.
Like, we are still, you know, hiking and going into shops and, you know, exploring and like doing all of this stuff. So it's like, it kind of has become part of our like travel routine almost. Whereas like we know where we're probably going to be in a situation where we have to do that. We just do it when we have to and we just try and have the best time and enjoy ourselves because like, for us, like there is no experience like traveling.
Kellee: Thanks for listening to Let's Go Together, a podcast by Travel + Leisure. I'm Kellee Edwards.
Thanks to our production team at Pod People: Rachael King, Matt Sav, Danielle Roth, Lene Bech Sillisen, and Marvin Yueh [yu-eh]. This show was recorded in Los Angeles, edited in New York City, and can be found wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks also to the team at Travel and Leisure, Deanne Kaczerski, Nina Ruggiero, and Tanner Saunders
You can find out more at travel and leisure dot com slash podcast. You can find Travel + Leisure IG @travelandleisure, on Twitter @travelleisure, on TikTik @travelandleisuremag, and you can find me at @kelleesetgo.
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